Talk:Ode to Billie Joe

Pointing out somebody’s already-there answer to somebody’s question of “Why 1953?”

To whomever asked “why 1953” I found the following paragraph, added to this section, titled “ Discussion,” of this page’s “Talk.” It was added by idk who, just know it wasn’t me; I only copied and pasted the text. Here (finally) is that answer:

“If it helps any, this page shows the cover of a paperback version of the story from the early-mid-1970s (17th printing in 1976), and you can clearly see the 1953 date specified on it. -- Random visitor browsing through” Dbreyna (talk) 19:26, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Just a whopping thank you to this page’s contributors—AWESOME work 👋🏽

STUPENDOUS work 👏🏽 Obviously a great deal of work involved here! I love 💗 everything about this page, and I remember the song, the movie, the artist. Now I know a vast amount MORE about this hauntingly strange and beautiful song that so mysteriously captured the hearts and minds of American culture. Thank you for going to great lengths to”Wikicapture” (or “Wikitimecapsule” ???) the “Wikistory” (or “Wikimystery” ???) of all this incredible information! Brava 👏🏽😊 Sincerely in awe — dbreyna Dbreyna (talk) 19:43, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ode to Billie Joe/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 20:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

First one for the GAN backlog! --K. Peake 20:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Either write out and source the exact release date in the body, or only keep July 1967 if 10th is speculation
• Recording date is not sourced in the body, which only says soon after February
• WP:OVERLINK of Bobbie Gentry under songwriters
• Mention in the first sentence that it is from his debut studio album of the same name (1967).
• The release info should be either after the album part or in its own sentence
• Chart listings belong after the Grammys, which should come directly after the clarification part anyway
• Rearranging in the correct order as I will further instruct, change this to two para lead
• "the single topped" → "the song topped"
• Wikilink acoustic guitar
• "received widespread attention leaving" → "received widespread attention, leaving"
• Remove "of her composition" after the message part because this is implied
• Wikilink as Rolling Stone's instead and to itself, plus retrospective rankings should be the part before the film

Thanks for taking the review, much appreciated.

About rearranging some of the facts; I've been trying to order the information on the lead chronologically. The single was released in July 1967, and it happened to become an overnight success (chart performance). The label eventually decided to cash on that momentum and they put together a full length debut album with the other songs she'd been recording. A few months after the album release, there came the Grammys.

I thought the order of the events was important for this particular song, since one of the characteristics of its popularity was pretty much the fact that "it came out of nowhere", and its success was overwhelming (you can read on the reviews how the radio stations just kept playing it all summer long). If we rearrange the lead not following the timeline, I would somehow point out how it basically "exploded".--GDuwenHoller! 20:20, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Usually stuff like awards and commercial performance comes later on, but it is fine with the context provided. However, you should still mention it being on the album of the same name in the first sentence and the Grammys should come later than lyrical content, while a two sentence para is not appropriate for the lead. --K. Peake 21:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I think that lead is ready for a second look now.--GDuwenHoller! 20:50, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Background and recording

• "and lived in Chicksaw County" should be followed by the point she stopped living there
• "At age thirteen," → "At the age of 13," per MOS:NUM
• Pipe UCLA to University of California, Los Angeles
• "a philosophy major. Gentry transferred" → "a philosophy major, before transferring"
• Pipe Los Angeles Conservatory of Music to California Institute of the Arts
• "joined one of his recording sessions to" → "took part in a recording session with him" to be less repetitive
• Pipe A&R to Artists and repertoire
• Remove comma after man
• "impressed White and Ford expressed" → "impressed White, and Ford expressed"
• "and refused to purchase it." → "and refused to make a purchase."
• Add release year of "Mississippi Delta"
• Pipe B-side to A-side and B-side
• Mention what the recording was cheaper than per the source
• Merge the yielded sentence with the assistance one since they are too short to be alone
• "some of his studio's own recordings." → "some of his own studio recordings."
• First instance says Larry Shane but the subsequent ones say Shayne; fix his surname on whichever is incorrect
• "Shayne sold Axelrod" → "He sold Axelrod"
• Wikilink cellos
• "was the movie's score.[11] Gordon then overdubbed" → "was a score;[11] Gordon then overdubbed" with the pipe
• [8] should be only invoked after the last of the two final sentences, as this is at the end of the para
• "for the A side" → "for the A-side"
• Should it be "was not confirmed" or "has not been confirmed"?
• Wikilink University of Alabama

 Done--GDuwenHoller! 21:32, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Content

• "Gentry's song takes the form" → ""Ode to Billie Joe" takes the form"
• Add info about the part specifically displayed on the audio sample rather than what is consistent for the song
• Add a year after June 3 if the narrator mentions one
• "her brother and her father, returning" → "her brother and father returning"
• For the jumped off quote, place punctuation inside if it is a full sentence
• "lick of sense," before" → "lick of sense", before" per MOS:QUOTE
• Pipe plow to Plough
• "like the daughter and" → "like the daughter, and"
• "While she express no" → "Even though she expresses no"
• "in every stanza of the song." → "in every stanza."
• Pipe downbeats to Downbeat and upbeat per MOS:LINK2SECT

 Done--GDuwenHoller! 19:25, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Btw, there is no mention to a particular year. Just that it happened on the 3rd of June.--GDuwenHoller! 19:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the sound sample, besides of the part of the narration being mentioned in the body, we got other characteristics covered elsewhere (in that section the rhyme of "ridge" and "bridge" is mentioned, the sparse guitar arrangements are discussed in the section above). I feel we got its fair use pretty well covered.--GDuwenHoller! 20:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Gentry's comments on the lyrics

• "Bobbie Gentry crosses the" → "Gentry crosses the" on the img text
• "to empathize with other people's" → "to empathize with others'" to be less repetitive
• "off the bridge, she commented the audience" → "off the Tallahatchie Bridge, she commented that the audience"
• "a wedding ring or" → "a wedding ring, or"
• "She said she had" → "Gentry said she had"
• "she called the song" → "Gentry called the song" per this being a new para
• [21] should be at the end of the first sentence too, as refs need to be there whenever a quote is used
• "adding that what was thrown off the bridge" → "adding that what had been thrown" to be less wordy, plus we know you are on about the bridge
• "Gentry said people suggested" → "She said people suggested"
• Pipe LSD to Lysergic acid diethylamide
• "it was draft card," → "it was a draft card,"
• "she knew what it was," → "she knew what the object was," to be less repetitive
• "left it open to interpretation." → "left interpretation open." or something similar
• "and the daughter and provided" → "and the daughter, and provided" plus this sentence needs [22] at the end per the usage of quotes
• "told the New York Times" → "told The New York Times" with the wikilink

All corrected except "*"she knew what it was," → "she knew what the object was," to be less repetitive". I would leave it the way it is phrased, since it is often interpreted that instead of an object, what was thrown of the bridge could have been a fetus or a newborn.--GDuwenHoller! 19:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Release and reception

• Wikilink Capitol Records on the img text
• Add the exact release date of the single if it is known
• "it reached number one on" → "the single reached number one on" but should you refer to this as the Billboard Hot 100 to be clear?
• "and 17 on" → "and number 17 on the"
• "it reached number four" → "the song reached number four"
• "On New Zealand Listener," → "On the New Zealand Listener chart,"
• If "this is what I had in mind." doesn't start a sentence in the original quote, then remove the usage of a colon here
• Mention what annual ceremony it was nominated for eight awards at
• "Best New Artist and" → "Best New Artist, and"
• "in the case in 1973." → "in the 1973 case."
• "of the New York Times" → "of The New York Times"
• If "but a woman doesn't..." is not a sentence's beginning in the original quote, then get rid of the colon used plus invoke [43] at the end per the quoting

All done, plus I changed the spelled out charts for numbers. Probably that happened during the copyedit process.--GDuwenHoller! 12:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Critical reception

• Write "The staff of Billboard" plus remove the pipe unless the chart is changed to Hot 100 earlier in the sub-section
• Remove wikilink on Los Angeles Times
• Add the film's release year
• The New York Times → The New York Times with no wikilink, plus either attribute the success part to Wilson or write that they published an article about the success
• "felt it was" → "felt the song was"
• "as it was" → "as it is"
• "he considered topic" is this supposed to be "the considered topic" or "he considered the topic"?
• "for The Miami Herald that, "Not" → "for the Miami Herald that "not" with the wikilink
• "determined that, "On casual" → "determined that upon "casual"
• "the rendition" but that" → "the rendition", but that"
• Either mention the reviewers by name or write something like "A reviewer/writer for..."
• "and that it "had mystery"." → "and noted the presence of mystery."
• "wrote: "the lyrics are too much" and that" → "wrote that "the lyrics are too much" and"
• "out that, "Musically, the" → "out how "musically, the"

Done. Except for mentioning the names of the particular reviewers instead of the publications. I remember we had this discussion in another GAN about the editorial process the newspapers used to go through before any piece was published (Talk:Stardust (1927 song)/GA1#Big band era and success). An editor-in-chief or editorial board used to not only fact-check the content that was to be printed on the next edition, but also to take responsibility for the impact that it produced. If it was printed, it reflected the opinion of the publication. That is why many review columns prior to the 1970s many times don't have an author: either nothing at all, or "the staff of x". That was, of course, when newspapers were reliable instead of the rags we have today.--GDuwenHoller! 13:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Legacy

• "for the full album," → "for Ode to Billie Joe," since you haven't yet used the title
• The Beatles → the Beatles per MOS:THEMUSIC, plus add the album's release year
• Merge the first para with the second, as one sentence is too short and the info is related
• "she rejected them preferring" → "she rejected them, preferring"
• Use Gentry's publisher's surname here instead
• "the upcoming film. Raucher's" → "the upcoming film; Raucher's"
• "and novel was titled" → "and novel were both titled"
• "in 1976: at number 65" → "in 1976. It charted at number 65"
• "number 92 and" → "numbers 92 and"
• Add a comma before respectively
• "forty and fifty men had" → "40 and 50 men had" per MOS:NUM
• Mention what year the greatest songs of all time list was
• "100 Greatest Country Songs. It deemed" → "100 Greatest Country Songs in 2014; Richard Gehr deemed"

 Done

Other versions

• "In August 1967 Margie Singleton" → "In August 1967, Margie Singleton"
• "on the Billboard Hot 100[62] and" → "on the Billboard Hot 100, also in 1967,[62] and"
• Remove pipe on R&B chart plus mention this being RPM
• Remove the versions in the Brook Benton sentence per WP:SONGCOVER, unless you can find more info to prove notability
• "In the song the main" → "In the song, the main"
• Shouldn't it be "jumps off" because the song is telling a story?
• Remove Siw Malmkvist version per WP:SONGCOVER, unless you can add more info
• For all of the second para apart from Tony Joe White, either add more info or remove the versions per above
• If Reflections and Manufacturers of Soul releases are kept, add the years
• Add the release year of "Polk Salad Annie"
• Add a comma before "originally recorded in 1967,"
• "is the revelation that" → "is a revelation,"
• "gone mad!"." → "gone mad!"" per MOS:QUOTE on grammar from quotations
• Remove Sinéad O'Connor and Wencke Myhre or add more info per WP:SONGCOVER
• "parodied the song where" → "parodied the song, where"
• "play a married singer-songwriter couple who perform" → "played a married singer-songwriter couple who performed"
• Merge the Saturday Night Live para with the one below since one sentence is not sufficient
• ""Where is Bobbie Gentry?" which" → ""Where is Bobbie Gentry?", which" plus add the album's release year

Done with the corrections. I moved the sentence about Tony Joe White up to "Legacy". I'm not sure how it landed among the cover versions. About the RPM R&B Singles chart, that was a mistake. The song did appear in the R&B chart of Billboard at a higher position.--GDuwenHoller! 13:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Chart performance

• Retitle to Charts

Bobbie Gentry

Weekly charts

• See MOS:TABLECAPTION
• The year should in brackets after Chart rather than having its own column, similarly to the year-end ones
• Regarding the above, you should have two separate tables for 1967 and 1976
• For 1976, reorder the charts in alphabetical order

 Done--GDuwenHoller! 13:36, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Year-end charts

• See MOS:TABLECAPTION
• Remove pipe on RPM
• U.S. → US

 Done--GDuwenHoller! 13:38, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

All-time charts

• See MOS:TABLECAPTION

 Done

Other artists

• See MOS:TABLECAPTION
• There should be separate tables for each artist here
• Canada RPM R&B → Canada R&B (RPM)
• U.S. → US

Could we keep one table for all of the artists though? All of this versions were also recorded in 1967 to obviously cash on the success of Gentry's original. They most likely even got to chart for the very same reason. Adding three tables with its subtitles for every artist and such would, in my opinion, make the section an unnecessary long scroll.--GDuwenHoller! 13:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

References

• Copyvio score looks very good at 29.1%!!!
• Ref 84 is a duplicate of the source used for ref 34, so invoke that instead
• Ref 87 is a duplicate of the source used for ref 36, so invoke that instead
• Ref 95 is a duplicate of the source used for ref 33, so invoke that instead
• Musicoutfitters.com → Music Outfitters on ref 96
• Ref 100 is a duplicate of the source used for ref 63, so invoke that instead
• Add work/website for ref 103
• New York Times → The New York Times, wikilinking on the first source
• Wikilink Newspapers.com on the first occasion per MOS:LINK2SECT
• Wikilink Associated Press on the first occasion
• Pipe Billboard to Billboard (magazine) and wikilink Google Books on the first occasion
• Wikilink Billboard Books
• Pipe Ric-Tic to Ric-Tic Records
• Wikilink Recording Academy and cite as publisher instead
• Cite IRMA as publisher instead
• Do any of the metronomes listed as Wiki classify as the one here, so you can pipe it?
• Pipe Life to Life (magazine) on the first occasion
• MOS:CAPS issues with the MOR playlist source, or is that just how M0R is stylized?
• Pipe Fort Lauderdale News to Sun-Sentinel and wikilink United Press International
• The Miami Herald → Miami Herald
• Wikilink Record Collector
• Wikilink Tallahassee Democrat
• Wikilink Record Research solely on the first occasion
• Write the full name John S. Wilson and author-link him

All done. I also cleared the sources that were orphaned after erasing the mentions to covers that didn't have any further relevant information to them. About the title "MOR Playlist", it was an acronym for "Middle of the Road" songs, aka "Easy Listening" tunes.--GDuwenHoller! 20:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

External links

• Change to "Audio of" rather than "Listen to" before the title

Seems like someone got there before me!--GDuwenHoller! 20:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Final comments and verdict

•  On hold until all of the issues are fixed; wrapped up this quite quickly for the large size! --K. Peake 09:17, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that review, it was indeed quick! Ready with my first assessment. A few points still open need some discussion.--GDuwenHoller! 21:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

GDuwen Your welcome and I mostly understand the areas where you respectfully disagreed with me, but there needs to be proper text added to the audio sample itself for the usage to be justified. --K. Peake 09:05, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Kyle Peake Alright, I understand now. I wasn't by any means on the same page, that caption was indeed rather vague. I guess the new one should cover the issue.--GDuwenHoller! 13:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

GDuwen ✓ Pass now, the caption for the sample is fine now and these don't necessarily need to describe everything demonstrated, just required to provide at least a reasonable description and I added a full-stop for you. --K. Peake 13:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Kyle Peake Thanks a bunch once again, your work is much appreciated! Glad we got through another successful collaboration.--GDuwenHoller! 14:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 10:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Advertisement for "Ode to Billie Joe", featuring singer-songwriter Bobbie Gentry

• ... that Bobbie Gentry defined her composition "Ode to Billie Joe" as a "study in unconscious cruelty"? Source: Associated Press staff (November 14, 1967). "Bobbie Lee Gentry Has A Happy Secret". The Paducah Sun. Vol. 90, no. 273. Associated Press. Archived from the original on October 17, 2021. Retrieved June 14, 2021 – via Newspaperss.com.
  • ALT1: ... that "Ode to Billie Joe" topped the Billboard Hot 100 five weeks after its release? Source: Feather, Leonard (August 27, 1967). "The Sudden Entry of Bobbie Gentry". Los Angeles Times. Vol. 86=. Archived from the original on October 17, 2021. Retrieved May 31, 2021 – via Newspapers.com.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Leander Schnerr

Improved to Good Article status by GDuwen (talk). Self-nominated at 16:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC).

History and references check out; all good on the copyvio front. Good to go. Daniel Case (talk) 20:38, 15 January 2022 (UTC) ALT0 to T:DYK/P5 without image

University of Mississippi Manuscript

In Background and recording it says "Meanwhile, a manuscript of a draft of the song donated by Gentry to the University of Mississippi contained verses that were not included on the final recording." But page xi of Tara Murtha's book shows a photocopy, and there are no extra verses that were not in the recording. I don't know what it says on page 69 of the book because it is not available as a free preview on google books. But page xi is. 130.76.112.18 (talk) 23:34, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Tallahatchie Bridge/River coincidence

Ode To Billie Joe was number 1 in 1967 on the anniversary of Emmett Till being thrown off a bridge in 1955 that was upriver from the Tallahatchie Bridge mentioned in the song. (Cashbox was published on August 26 and Till was August 28 so another chart that week may have been the same day.) Colonial Computer (talk) 02:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)